Mordomin > January 2nd, 2024, 10:55 PM
Alvin Eriol > January 3rd, 2024, 04:22 PM
Mordomin > January 5th, 2024, 11:44 PM
(January 3rd, 2024, 04:22 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: Well, 1st of all, I don't see it as being Isildur's curse, in a real sense, but that of Eru!I don't follow. The words of Isildur were" Thou shalt be the last king, and if the west prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk; to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end." At no time did Isildur invoke Eru is speaking his curse.
(January 3rd, 2024, 04:22 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: Even the mightiest Ainur have limited power over the Eruhini, never mind a Man, and the fëa of Men particularly are drawn out of Eä after Death per ordinance of Eru. I think only He can make exceptions to the fate He ordained for Men, and those would be rare and for some overriding purpose. In a way, IMO, JRRT posited that Isildur did not so much utter a curse with power in itself, as he uttered prophecy.That flies in the face of the fact that Isildur used the word 'curse' while laying his, well, curse.
(January 3rd, 2024, 04:22 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: I agree such a scenario would be based not so much on what Sauron could actually do for them, as what the Dead Men might be deceived into believing. That gets us into the sticky iffy area of what a Dead Man might know, feel, and be motivated by. Is there some inkling of confirmation that comes to them when the promised one finally appears and summons them? Is their "curse" also a protection while they linger in Middle-Earth biding their time and periodically scaring the wits out of hapless locals on dark nights? If so, IMO Sauron can't deceive them in that fashion. I'm sure if he could, he probably already would have tried centuries prior.Perhaps it comes down to whether Eru or the Valar were invoked as a part of the oath that the Men of Dunharrow swore upon the Stone of Erech. I didn't not find the wording in an admittedly cursory search.
This might be one instance of necromancy the Necromancer wasn't able to pull off.
Alvin Eriol > January 6th, 2024, 11:06 PM
Michael > January 10th, 2024, 12:22 AM
Mordomin > January 11th, 2024, 01:26 AM
(January 10th, 2024, 12:22 AM)Michael Wrote: I've always believed that the power of foresight was on Isildur, and not that he laid any curse upon the Men of Dunharrow.That belief is clearly wrong, as Isildur used the word 'curse' in proclaiming his 'Curse'. See previous quotes, above.
(January 10th, 2024, 12:22 AM)Michael Wrote: That would have been an extraordinary power granted to a mere Numenorean - well beyond anything anyone else in the Line of Elros or its close relatives had ever possessed. I've never seen anyone make a logical argument for Isildur to have that ability.I agree.
(January 10th, 2024, 12:22 AM)Michael Wrote: So the curse wasn't so much a curse as a second chance. And since only Iluvatar could have granted those men such a grace, it must have been he who granted the second chance in the first place.I will, indeed must, grant you that Iluvatar is the ultimate power in Arda. And so, ultimately he willed into being such dire shapes as the Barrow-wights, the Ring-wraiths, and perhaps many other shades of Men that occur in these Tales.
Mordomin > January 13th, 2024, 07:53 AM
Jaak > January 17th, 2024, 06:54 PM
(January 2nd, 2024, 10:55 PM)Mordomin Wrote: What we know: The Men of the Vales of Morthond swore an Oath upon the Stone of Erech to Isildur to fight in the war against Sauron.
turnipjuice > January 18th, 2024, 08:24 PM
(January 18th, 2024, 08:24 PM)turnipjuice Wrote: My guess is it comes down to the wording of the oath the Dead Men swore to Isildur. Perhaps it was worded in a way that called Eru into witness and so when they broke the oath they were messing with more than a Numenoreon. Similar to Feanor calling the Valar and Eru as witness to his terrible oath before leaving Valinor. So breaking this oath to Isildur was also breaking an oath to Eru. Big trouble there.
My guess is Sauron could have sent emissaries to tempt these Dead Men but having called Eru to witness their original oath and thus breaking it and becoming spirit zombies they became innately aware of such deceptions. Sauron probably lost a fair amount of toadies if he repeatedly tried to get them to join him if he even remembered they were there. Perhaps only the ringwraiths themselves could have stood against them.
Fun speculation though.
Mordomin > January 19th, 2024, 03:26 PM
(January 18th, 2024, 08:24 PM)turnipjuice Wrote: My guess is it comes down to the wording of the oath the Dead Men swore to Isildur. Perhaps it was worded in a way that called Eru into witness and so when they broke the oath they were messing with more than a Numenoreon. Similar to Feanor calling the Valar and Eru as witness to his terrible oath before leaving Valinor. So breaking this oath to Isildur was also breaking an oath to Eru. Big trouble there.I think that you have summed up the question nicely, and the other replies to my question are more or less of accord.
Michael > January 20th, 2024, 05:33 PM
(January 11th, 2024, 01:26 AM)Mordomin Wrote:(January 10th, 2024, 12:22 AM)Michael Wrote: I've always believed that the power of foresight was on Isildur, and not that he laid any curse upon the Men of Dunharrow.That belief is clearly wrong, as Isildur used the word 'curse' in proclaiming his 'Curse'. See previous quotes, above.
Quote:'Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end." And they fled before the wrath of Isildur, and did not dare to go forth to war on Sauron's part; and they hid themselves in secret places in the mountains and had no dealings with other men, but slowly dwindled in the barren hills. And the terror of the Sleepless Dead lies about the Hill of Erech and all places where that people lingered. But that way I must go, since there are none living to help me.'
Quote:The fact remains that, if Isildur could not curse the Men of Dunharrow as the story suggests, what is the explanation for their existence at all under the White Mountains? They should be long dead. If it wasn't Isildur, what power bound their spirits there?
Mordomin > January 23rd, 2024, 05:37 PM
(January 20th, 2024, 05:33 PM)Michael Wrote:Michael, I think that we are actually in accord on this. I think that you are right that Isildur did not have the power to curse an entire people (the Men of Morthond/Dunharrow) to live as shadows if they failed their oath to him - which they did.(January 11th, 2024, 01:26 AM)Mordomin Wrote:(January 10th, 2024, 12:22 AM)Michael Wrote: I've always believed that the power of foresight was on Isildur, and not that he laid any curse upon the Men of Dunharrow.That belief is clearly wrong, as Isildur used the word 'curse' in proclaiming his 'Curse'. See previous quotes, above.
Gollum's family cursed him, according to Gandalf. Do you really think they had the power to doom him in some way?
When the Orcs followed the Fellowship into Lorien, Haldir said to Frodo: "A strong company of Orcs has passed. They crossed the Nimrodel - curse their foul feet in its fair water!"
Boromir also cursed Frodo "and all halflings!" when he tried to take the Ring.
Damrod said "Curse the Southrons!" when he and Mablung were guarding Frodo and Sam as Faramir's company attacked the soldiers on the road in Ithilien. So let's see what Isildur did:
Quote:'Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end." And they fled before the wrath of Isildur, and did not dare to go forth to war on Sauron's part; and they hid themselves in secret places in the mountains and had no dealings with other men, but slowly dwindled in the barren hills. And the terror of the Sleepless Dead lies about the Hill of Erech and all places where that people lingered. But that way I must go, since there are none living to help me.'
It's clear he laid a curse upon them - in Aragorn's tale. But that doesn't in any way confirm the notion that Isildur had the native power to curse anyone, especially Mortal Men, in such a way as to deter Iluvatar's will (that Men should die and their spirits seek elsewhere). To argue thus implies that Isildur had power comparable to Sauron's (who needed to use the Rings of Power to enslave the souls of the Nine).
Quote:The fact remains that, if Isildur could not curse the Men of Dunharrow as the story suggests, what is the explanation for their existence at all under the White Mountains? They should be long dead. If it wasn't Isildur, what power bound their spirits there?
I think anyone could "lay a curse" upon anyone else. But it was ultimately up to Iluvatar to determine if such a curse would be fulfilled; unless the cursing being had sufficient power to enforce the curse in some way. Sauron trapped the spirits of the Nazgul in a half-dead state. They weren't fully dead (apparently), and so that was his loophole in the logic of the inferrable laws of Middle-earth (so-to-speak).
RobRoy > January 24th, 2024, 07:53 PM
(January 2nd, 2024, 10:55 PM)Mordomin Wrote: Only an heir of Isildur could lift the curse.
BUT...is that last bit strictly true?
Quote:What if a mighty emissary of Sauron, such as the Witch-king, had come among them and promised that Lord Sauron would release them from their curse and set them free, if only they would fight for Sauron against Gondor? Or even, once more, stand aside?
I'm not saying that Sauron actually had the power to lift the Curse of Isildur. That could be a whole separate discussion.
But he has a long history of promising people things that he cannot deliver on, and then betraying them.
Could this not have been one of those times?
Mordomin > January 24th, 2024, 11:25 PM
(January 24th, 2024, 07:53 PM)RobRoy Wrote: This seems to be a separate question, so forgive me if I misunderstand, but are you asking, "Could Sauron have tricked the Men of Dunharrow into fighting for him?" That being the case, I'd say a solid maybe. It's been some time since I reviewed the actual text, but I seem to recall that Aragorn summoned them to the Stone of Erech and there he called upon them to fulfill their oath and gave them specific terms for it to be held fulfilled. I suspect that they knew he was Isildur's heir, and thus answered the summons and complied with the order to aid him so they could be released. That might mean that Sauron could have done something similar, making them believe he was Isildur's heir "somehow" and lying to them that he could release them once they had done what he asked.I agree. Aragorn declared his lineage in the caverns under the White Mountains, and called the Dead to Erech. They followed him, or as Legolas said, "They have been summoned".
RobRoy > January 25th, 2024, 12:02 PM
(January 24th, 2024, 11:25 PM)Mordomin Wrote: I think that, if I were Sauron and wanting to rally the Deadmen of Dunharrow to my cause, I would have simply promised to destroy the Stone in exchange for their service.
Mordomin > January 26th, 2024, 05:05 AM
(January 25th, 2024, 12:02 PM)RobRoy Wrote:I think that it comes down to how much volition the Deadmen had. Did they know that only Isildur (or his rightful heir) could release them? Or would they have been deceived by Sauron's promise to release them?(January 24th, 2024, 11:25 PM)Mordomin Wrote: I think that, if I were Sauron and wanting to rally the Deadmen of Dunharrow to my cause, I would have simply promised to destroy the Stone in exchange for their service.
As the lie? Yeah, I could see them potentially buying into that. If they believed he had the power to release them—however he managed to do that—then the conditions of the release could include the stone in some fashion. So yeah, this is all potentially doable, provided they first buy that Sauron has the power.
CUE THE DRUM MACHINE!
RobRoy > January 26th, 2024, 12:42 PM
(January 26th, 2024, 05:05 AM)Mordomin Wrote: I think that it comes down to how much volition the Deadmen had. Did they know that only Isildur (or his rightful heir) could release them? Or would they have been deceived by Sauron's promise to release them?
gzhindra > January 31st, 2024, 09:28 AM
RobRoy > January 31st, 2024, 01:24 PM
(January 31st, 2024, 09:28 AM)gzhindra Wrote: I think that Tolkien viewed everything as pre determined. This means that the dead men were destined to be freed by Isildurs heir at some point. This also means that Isildurs heir could not be killed because he needed to be around to free the dead men. So there was no way for Sauron to trick the dead men.
Based on Tolkiens writing it seems that Isildur cursed them.
It seems strange that Isildur had that power, but if he were destined to curse the dead men, then it all part of
Gods plan (ERU, Iluvatar).
This is in line with catholic thinking, I think.
Mordomin > February 1st, 2024, 03:13 AM
(January 26th, 2024, 12:42 PM)RobRoy Wrote: How'd I do?Great! And clearly you had fun in the answer, which is what I hoped for in posing a "what if" type of question. As usual, it got much more thoughtful insights than I could have ever come up with myself.